Great ongoing support and customer assistance. Been working with Frank for years, even before cad ray. Always there for any help i ever need. Cad ray support is like no other. - 1/26/2023
Shant Aharonian
Cad-ray has to be the best company to work with when it comes to digital dentistry solutions. Here are the reasons why: 1. Experience. Everyone in the company has extensive experience in dentistry. They have used all digital platforms and offer custo...read moreCad-ray has to be the best company to work with when it comes to digital dentistry solutions. Here are the reasons why: 1. Experience. Everyone in the company has extensive experience in dentistry. They have used all digital platforms and offer customers first hand experience. 2. Honesty. Based on their experience they share all the good/bad of different systems. They work with you to find a solution that works best for you. Not sell you the piece of the equipment that gives them the biggest commission. 3. Support. Cad-ray offers the missing piece of the dentist/digital manufacturer puzzle. Many other distributors sell you a piece of equipment but don’t have true day-to-day experience with that equipment. Cad-ray’s team openly share their expertise to help customers optimize their workflows with great technology. 4. Passionate. The Cad-ray team is extremely passionate about their craft. They truly believe in what they have to offer. I took Armen Mirzayan’s course on intraoral scanning and it was truly mind blowing. Armen’s insights will help any dentist optimize their craft. I purchased the full sprintray 3d printing ecosystem the help of Frank. I plan to purchase more equipment from cad-ray. Also, Jesse is a genius in regards to all aspect of digital workflows. I’m truly grateful for this company and everyone who I’ve worked with so far.read less - 10/07/2022
Kip Covington
Customer support! I've had handfuls of scanners over the years and support has always been the biggest variable. We recently had a scanner bought through and implant company and received limited to no support. Through recommendations from several fri...read moreCustomer support! I've had handfuls of scanners over the years and support has always been the biggest variable. We recently had a scanner bought through and implant company and received limited to no support. Through recommendations from several friends, I purchased a second scanner through cad-ray and had them transfer over our support for the first. I wish I would have done this years ago. Destaney, has been incredible helping us troubleshoot a hardware issue that came up. It was on 3-shapes side but not only did she run it up the ladder there and get us back up and running quickly, but she promptly answered all questions and continuously checked in to make sure things were moving along. I won't purchase from anyone else going forward.read less - 8/14/2024
Stephanie O'Rourke
I am fairly new to scanning with my Medit I700. I am loving this in my business. It has had its challenges at times but the best part is the accessibility and support from Frank DeLuca. He has been instrumental in helping me when I have a patient in...read moreI am fairly new to scanning with my Medit I700. I am loving this in my business. It has had its challenges at times but the best part is the accessibility and support from Frank DeLuca. He has been instrumental in helping me when I have a patient in the chair and need assistance. I couldn't be more grateful for his help. Thanks, Frank!read less - 12/16/2021
Artin Sakhaee
The support is even better then the camera itself. I used many other scanners and this is by far the best one. Recommended to many people. Looking to purchase a second one for my practice. The use and results are amazing. No adjustments to the p...read moreThe support is even better then the camera itself. I used many other scanners and this is by far the best one. Recommended to many people. Looking to purchase a second one for my practice. The use and results are amazing. No adjustments to the prosthetics at all.read less - 7/15/2020
Norman Knowles
I have had the original iTero, a Trios 3, and a Carestream CS3600. A staff member broke the lens on the Trios and while waiting 3 weeks for an RMA to send it to Poland for six weeks to get it repaired, Carestream was sniffing around and suggested tha...read moreI have had the original iTero, a Trios 3, and a Carestream CS3600. A staff member broke the lens on the Trios and while waiting 3 weeks for an RMA to send it to Poland for six weeks to get it repaired, Carestream was sniffing around and suggested that I trade in my Trios so I did which began a 4 month nightmare with their piece of junk scanner. Absolutely awful customer service from both 3Shape and Carestream. I needed a scanner and had heard great things about it the Medit i500 at the Florida Academy of Coesmetic Dentistry so I got one. It works really well and Medit keeps adding new and useful features and their architecture is completely open. Two weeks ago, my i500 died so I contacted Cad-Ray surrport and I had a new unit in my office 24 hours later! That's absolutely unheard of in the industry!!! Both Cad-Ray and Medit have positioned themselves to be industry giant killers and they're doing it. The i500 is a phenomenal scanner at a phenomenal price point and service and guidance at Cad-Ray is just plain excellent.If you are thinking about getting a scanner, do it! Just contact Cad-Ray and go for it. You will only be happy about your purchase! Highly recommended!read less - 3/09/2021
Spark Dental
Just had a new i700 scanner.Service so far is great.Andy did our training, he was great in answering all our questions .loving the scanner so far .😊 - 9/01/2022
Stephen S
Choosing an digital intraoral scanner these days can be quite a daunting task. When I reached out to CAD-Ray, as was recommended by many colleagues, I was connected to Frank DeLuca, and he made my decision-making process very simple. Upon receiving...read moreChoosing an digital intraoral scanner these days can be quite a daunting task. When I reached out to CAD-Ray, as was recommended by many colleagues, I was connected to Frank DeLuca, and he made my decision-making process very simple. Upon receiving my 3shape Trios 4 scanner, Frank and the entire tech support team/customer service were very helpful every step of the way. Frank makes himself available when he can in order to address all of the questions I have regarding the digital workflow. I highly recommend CAD-Ray. It will make your transition to digital scanning a positive experience.read less - 1/24/2023
Thuy Nguyen
CAD-Ray is amazing! Prompt replies, quick delivery, knowledgeable team! I had some cracks on my scanner that I read on their FB group may be a manufacturer's defect. My scanner was still covered under warranty. They overnighted a brand new one to me ...read moreCAD-Ray is amazing! Prompt replies, quick delivery, knowledgeable team! I had some cracks on my scanner that I read on their FB group may be a manufacturer's defect. My scanner was still covered under warranty. They overnighted a brand new one to me before I even knew they were going to replace it! That's how quick they are! Highly recommend them!!!read less - 12/23/2021
Ma. Teresa Santana
Best support and customer service ever! My scanner is long past warranty and they still answer all my questions. When it's time to upgrade I'll be buying from them again. A friend bought same scanner from another vendor and got zero support. I had to...read moreBest support and customer service ever! My scanner is long past warranty and they still answer all my questions. When it's time to upgrade I'll be buying from them again. A friend bought same scanner from another vendor and got zero support. I had to help them. Told her next time buy from Cad Rayread less - 5/10/2024
Steven Polasek
The cad ray team is the best! Jon and Nick offer first class service! I ordered a medit i500 from another supplier and had to cancel my order after it had not arrived within 3 weeks. Placed my order with Jon and Nick, had the scanner to me within 24 ...read moreThe cad ray team is the best! Jon and Nick offer first class service! I ordered a medit i500 from another supplier and had to cancel my order after it had not arrived within 3 weeks. Placed my order with Jon and Nick, had the scanner to me within 24 hours of purchase. I love my medit! Best scanner on the market!read less - 6/15/2020
Cad-Ray has been awesome to work with, very knowledgeable and quick to respond. Nick has been answering all my questions since day 1 and made the entire process of purchasing the Medit i700 a breeze. Can't believe how quick the product shipped and ca...read moreCad-Ray has been awesome to work with, very knowledgeable and quick to respond. Nick has been answering all my questions since day 1 and made the entire process of purchasing the Medit i700 a breeze. Can't believe how quick the product shipped and cannot wait to start scanning with it!read less - 12/15/2021
CAD-Ray provides the best support around. I started scanning with Medit i500 in 2018 and my dental practice immediately changed for the better.As a rookie, I had a lot of questions and I calledCAD-Ray a lot in the beginning. They were great!Jonathan...read moreCAD-Ray provides the best support around. I started scanning with Medit i500 in 2018 and my dental practice immediately changed for the better.As a rookie, I had a lot of questions and I calledCAD-Ray a lot in the beginning. They were great!Jonathan Acker helped me get set up. Frank Weinstein answered tons of questions. Laura Geney became an important source of information as I moved into scan bodies, AI library, and had hardware questions. I’ve attended classes in Dallas featuring Armen Mirzayan who is incredibly knowledgeable and will tell you the good, bad, and the ugly about digital workflow. The possibilities are endless with scanning technology. I also want to mention Nick Statly who has visited my Dallas office and is a wealth of information. I have to admit that I frequently view the CAD-Ray User Group Face Book page just to pick up a few pearls here and there.I highly recommend CAD-Ray because their support is by far the best in the IOS industry and because their people honestly care about the customer and are truly committed to your success.read less - 12/23/2021
Yaqi Mu
I absolutely love using the Medit i500 Intra-oral scanner!!! The i500 scanner is small and easy to use on all patients. It is fast and gives a very clear image. I also think its very cool that you can change the music setting to whatever song you m...read moreI absolutely love using the Medit i500 Intra-oral scanner!!! The i500 scanner is small and easy to use on all patients. It is fast and gives a very clear image. I also think its very cool that you can change the music setting to whatever song you may like! I have used a few different scanners since i have been a dental assistant and have had several complications as far as: how long the scanner would take to load the image, The scanner not catching the image and even the system constantly kicking me out. With the i500 intra-oral scanner i have the BEST experience. I am happy and my patients are happier! I recommend the Medit i500 Intra-oral scanner to anyone who has never used it before! You wont be disappointed! 5 Stars for sure!!!!
- Samantha Brown @ Southern Oak Dental in Conway SC.read less - 6/17/2020
Cad-Ray is the absolute best if you're in the market for digital dental tools. I have purchased two Medit scanners through them. There will be hiccups with any complex piece of machinery, but every time I have needed Cad-Ray, they have been there. I ...read moreCad-Ray is the absolute best if you're in the market for digital dental tools. I have purchased two Medit scanners through them. There will be hiccups with any complex piece of machinery, but every time I have needed Cad-Ray, they have been there. I recently had a scanner go down. I called Cad-Ray tech support and they got me on the phone with Medit immediately. Within a day, a replacement scanner was sitting on my desk. It doesn't get much better than that.read less - 10/03/2024
Cody Boseman
Cad-ray has been amazing, not to mention they have an amazing product in the medit i500. Their training is great, customer service is quick and thorough, and follow up is consistent. I highly recommend using cad-ray for anything that you may need. - 6/19/2020
Scott Chong
The i500 has been a game-changer for our orthodontic practice. Patients love not having to do alginate impressions. Records appointments and debands take much less time plus there's significantly less clean-up. And it's fast/easy enough to use tha...read moreThe i500 has been a game-changer for our orthodontic practice. Patients love not having to do alginate impressions. Records appointments and debands take much less time plus there's significantly less clean-up. And it's fast/easy enough to use that we've even been able to train summer interns to scans with zero prior dental experience. Our retainers, nightguards, and sleep apnea appliances all showed improved fit with less chair-side delivery time due to accuracy of the scans. Customer support is top-notch. Whenever we've had issues, we get someone immediately and they either talk us through a fix or login via screenshare to help us directly. They have a great loyalty program which gives significant discounts to upgrade to newer units. We recently took advantage and are excited to try out the new i700, especially since they're now Mac-compatible. Simple version: Great intra-oral scanner, easy to use/operate, intuitive software interface, fantastic support.read less - 8/16/2023
Eric Bailey
Couldn't be happier with the support I've gotten from these guys. Trouble-shooting a problem real time so you can call a patient and get them right back in with a solution is extremely hard customer service to match. Thanks a ton and no question wher...read moreCouldn't be happier with the support I've gotten from these guys. Trouble-shooting a problem real time so you can call a patient and get them right back in with a solution is extremely hard customer service to match. Thanks a ton and no question where I'll be going for any more purchases!read less - 10/06/2021
What can I say ! I have been extremely pleased with my scanner ! I recommend it to all my colleagues ! The support is the best , I bought the extended warranty and my scanner hada small crack and within one day they shipped my a new one ! I can’t wo...read moreWhat can I say ! I have been extremely pleased with my scanner ! I recommend it to all my colleagues ! The support is the best , I bought the extended warranty and my scanner hada small crack and within one day they shipped my a new one ! I can’t work without it ! Thank you !read less - 2/09/2022
Alec Keon
I was on the fence on getting a scanner for years and finally pulled the trigger. CAD-Ray's support and knowledge has made this one of the best investments in my practice to date. When I spoke with Damien on the phone about my options he literally sa...read moreI was on the fence on getting a scanner for years and finally pulled the trigger. CAD-Ray's support and knowledge has made this one of the best investments in my practice to date. When I spoke with Damien on the phone about my options he literally saved me thousands after figuring out what my exact needs were. I went with the Medit i600, MSI laptop and 3D dental systems cart. The final product looks and feels as premium as it gets.read less - 2/21/2024
Mike Capio
Nothing but good things to say about CAD-Ray. All of the education, recommendations, and products they provide are truly the best in digital dentistry at the time. - 6/20/2020
Samuel Schmidt
I purchased a SprintRay through them. I'm new to the 3D printer realm and they've been great with answering my questions and getting me set up. I've just really have been impressed with the quick responses, its much appreciated, thank you! - 4/20/2022
Mary Oliverie
Last year when I started looking into the Medit i500 I had my front desk call 3 sellers to get preliminary information. She told me hands down call CAD-RAY and don’t bother with the others. Boy was she right! Frank got us going with all our hardware ...read moreLast year when I started looking into the Medit i500 I had my front desk call 3 sellers to get preliminary information. She told me hands down call CAD-RAY and don’t bother with the others. Boy was she right! Frank got us going with all our hardware needs and trained us until all our questions were answered. Then Jonathon and Armen jumped in at our 2 day live training in Baltimore. I still review my notes to implement all the great ideas. When I get myself in a jam time to time CAD-RAY responds immediately and fixes my problem. Best decision I have made in the practice in a long time - Thank you everyone at CAD-RAY!read less - 10/09/2019
The i700 is the second scanner I have purchased. It is hands down far superior in terms of quality and ease of use than my first scanner (3M Tru Def). I was hesitant to enter the market again but wanted to mainly for implant reasons. After talking...read moreThe i700 is the second scanner I have purchased. It is hands down far superior in terms of quality and ease of use than my first scanner (3M Tru Def). I was hesitant to enter the market again but wanted to mainly for implant reasons. After talking with Laura and watching her presentation with my staff, we were sold! The i700 was extremely reasonable in price while being similar to units costing twice as much. CAD-Ray made this possible. I found their on line training to be adequate in learning the necessary skills to start scanning, I continue to watch these videos as I sharpen my skills. Initially I was concerned about the on line training. But now I actually prefer this way of training as it is self paced and you always have the library of videos to watch when needed. Laura has been there to answer questions and help me whenever needed and I’m talking on nights and weekends too! I admit I was was extremely hesitant to get another scanner, especially with an online outfit; but I have no regrets and highly recommend CAD-Ray and Laura for anyone needing a scanner! They provide excellent services.read less - 4/23/2022
Kent Lysgaard
This company has the best customer support I have ever experienced. I purchased the I700 Intraoral scanner and the transition from impression material to io scanner has been so easy because of Cad-Ray. I highly recommend them. The response to questi...read moreThis company has the best customer support I have ever experienced. I purchased the I700 Intraoral scanner and the transition from impression material to io scanner has been so easy because of Cad-Ray. I highly recommend them. The response to questions/issues is instantaneous even with a patient in the chair they have the capability to go online and help. Absolutely first rate.read less - 4/13/2022
Robert Mabry
I don't scan in my practice my assist does. She says it's awesome. Better than the trios or cerecs we have had in the past. The image quality while designing cases is amazing. Haven't seated a restoration from it yet but expect it to be great as well...read moreI don't scan in my practice my assist does. She says it's awesome. Better than the trios or cerecs we have had in the past. The image quality while designing cases is amazing. Haven't seated a restoration from it yet but expect it to be great as well.read less - 6/16/2020
It's so nice to enter the digital age for scanning! I've been taking impressions since 1975. Medit i700 is amazing and our #1 supporter, Laura has been with us every step of the way. I truly don't know what I would do without Laura and Nick in tec...read moreIt's so nice to enter the digital age for scanning! I've been taking impressions since 1975. Medit i700 is amazing and our #1 supporter, Laura has been with us every step of the way. I truly don't know what I would do without Laura and Nick in tech support. They definitely need a raise! Yes, we had a couple of glitches (mostly operator error) but they were there with us all the way. The detail that the scan gives, whether it's a crown, bridge, full mouth scan for patient review and now many scans for NTI's is truly amazing! We recommend it highly to all who are interested! I am proof that as a dental assistant who's 64, you CAN teach an old dog new tricks!!!read less - 12/09/2021
George W
Frank DeLuca has been my rep for almost a year and has provided excellent, caring, professional service and with a great attitude. - 1/25/2023
Jamal
I recently made a purchase from Cad-Ray and the experience was truly outstanding. From my initial enquiry, Nick was incredibly supportive and knowledgeable, answering all of my questions thoroughly and guiding me to the product that would best meet m...read moreI recently made a purchase from Cad-Ray and the experience was truly outstanding. From my initial enquiry, Nick was incredibly supportive and knowledgeable, answering all of my questions thoroughly and guiding me to the product that would best meet my needs. What really set this experience apart was his non-pushy approach. Nick showed genuine interest in understanding my specific requirements, ensuring that I would be fully satisfied with my choice. This type of customer service is rare and it made the whole process much more enjoyable. I can confidently recommend Cad-Ray to others not just for their high-quality products, but for their exceptional customer service. A big thank you to Nick and the entire Cad-Ray team for their professionalism and dedication.read less - 5/17/2023
Rusty Fitton
Super happy with our purchase of the Medit i500 from Cad Ray. Overall its a work horse scanner that has handled anything weve thrown at it. The key to success with it is definitely taking the time to actually learn how to use it after purchase. Ca...read moreSuper happy with our purchase of the Medit i500 from Cad Ray. Overall its a work horse scanner that has handled anything weve thrown at it. The key to success with it is definitely taking the time to actually learn how to use it after purchase. Cad Ray has an immense library of straight forward education videos that are updated basically daily. I havent done the 2 day course but that is also included in the purchase. You really cant find that sort of service and education with any of the other scanners on the market. Id recommend them to anyone.read less - 6/26/2020
Ryan Crain
I love my Medit and Cad-Ray has been so easy to work with, both from a sales and support standpoint. - 7/16/2020
Loving my Medit i700. My crowns have never fit better, and scanning is SOO easy. I started with cad-ray with the i500. The training and support have been second to none. I upgraded to the i700 shortly after it came out, and recently had a warranty is...read moreLoving my Medit i700. My crowns have never fit better, and scanning is SOO easy. I started with cad-ray with the i500. The training and support have been second to none. I upgraded to the i700 shortly after it came out, and recently had a warranty issue with the new scanner. immediately after calling them with my problem. A new scanner was overnighted to my office, I was very pleased, and had minimal down time.read less - 4/05/2022
vy pham
I have been a customer of CAD-Ray for about a year now. We have purchased multiple items from Laura, including exocad software, a milling machine, and the Imetric4d. I can’t express enough how happy we are that we made those purchases through them. T...read moreI have been a customer of CAD-Ray for about a year now. We have purchased multiple items from Laura, including exocad software, a milling machine, and the Imetric4d. I can’t express enough how happy we are that we made those purchases through them. The customer service and the fast responses, (especially Laura) has been top notch! At the beginning, just like anything else in dentistry, we needed support and reassurance of the items acquired and all I have to say is a big thank you for an amazing customer service and support!!!! And did I mention that they offer really good financial options? Again, thank you! Looking forward for the next purchase. - The Inspired Dental team in Las Vegas:)read less - 8/31/2021
Cana Pasierb
Cad-Ray has been excellent with support and training. They respond promptly and have a vested interest in your success with the products that they supply. - 6/17/2020
This has been awesome, to be honest I have know idea how to use it but our team members have picked it up so easy!! - 6/16/2020
William Neurauter
As a small office, making the move to digital impression dentistry was a rather large commitment. After much research we settled on the Medit i500. We almost purchased from our implant supplier but were less than impressed with their training and...read moreAs a small office, making the move to digital impression dentistry was a rather large commitment. After much research we settled on the Medit i500. We almost purchased from our implant supplier but were less than impressed with their training and support options. After additional research we found Cad-Ray and couldn't be happier that we purchased from them. Their online tutorials and live support have been second to none. Having such a great support network behind the Medit made the transition and purchase so much better than it could have been had we gone a different route.read less - 11/30/2021
I was dragging my feet before purchasing my first scanner because I was apprehensive of the effort required to change to a digital workflow. Laura assured me my fears were overblown and because of her patience and exceptional training abilities it h...read moreI was dragging my feet before purchasing my first scanner because I was apprehensive of the effort required to change to a digital workflow. Laura assured me my fears were overblown and because of her patience and exceptional training abilities it has been a rewarding and relatively seamless transition to the world of scanning. I never dreamed implementation would have been this easy and its attributed to Laura's skillful training ability. The scanner is wonderful and powerful, but we would have never been able to unlock its potential without her assistance.read less - 8/31/2021
Armen Mirzayan's knowledge base sets CAD-RAY.COM apart from all other digital dental-equipment dealers. Not content with linking manufacturer support content, Armen's team provide instant feedback to any equipment queries, in-depth video tutorials, a...read moreArmen Mirzayan's knowledge base sets CAD-RAY.COM apart from all other digital dental-equipment dealers. Not content with linking manufacturer support content, Armen's team provide instant feedback to any equipment queries, in-depth video tutorials, and regular product testing, streamlining, and pushing the boundaries of their products - be it software, hardware, or connectivity between various brands. I highly recommend this team if you want to fully utilise your equipment and have the backup needed going forward!read less - 11/05/2019
Amazing customer service. Wayne Glassoff helped me with purchase decision, taking the time to find out my needs, and then my order was delivered quickly! Easily the best "dental" purchase experience that I have ever had. - 9/07/2022
P. Andrew Benson
For me, getting this scanner was not a choice between Medit vs Itero or Medit vs Trios. Those companies have already eliminated themselves from consideration based on ridiculous cost, ridiculous ongoing fees, and greater concern for petty proprieta...read moreFor me, getting this scanner was not a choice between Medit vs Itero or Medit vs Trios. Those companies have already eliminated themselves from consideration based on ridiculous cost, ridiculous ongoing fees, and greater concern for petty proprietary posturing than for ensuring full functionality of their products to their usership. Typical dental tech company stuff.
The real decision was between Medit vs continuing life in analog dentistry. Medit through Cad-ray was really the only choice. Awesome packages , awesome access to free training videos, awesome software updates, awesome access to live support, awesome support staff.
There's just nothing better in dentistry than to get a great product AND a chance to stick it to the man.read less - 6/16/2020
Very Helpful, good company to work with. Always been there for me - 3/10/2017
Dong Lim
I’ve been using Medit for close to 2 years. It’s a must for any practice. No evil monthly subscription and great support from CAD ray - 6/16/2020
Roopam Garg
I purchased Medit scanner few weeks ago . Frank and Nick have been really excellent answering my questions promptly. The scanner itself is wonderful with no back fees , customer service is top notch. The entire team works fast and helps you out. I st...read moreI purchased Medit scanner few weeks ago . Frank and Nick have been really excellent answering my questions promptly. The scanner itself is wonderful with no back fees , customer service is top notch. The entire team works fast and helps you out. I strongly recommend this scanner!read less - 6/17/2020
Medit i700 intraoral scanner is the first scanner that I actually used on my patients. Before I put my hands on it, I had some prejudices against all scanners. They were bulky, laggy in capturing the images, etc. When I finally had the chance to use ...read moreMedit i700 intraoral scanner is the first scanner that I actually used on my patients. Before I put my hands on it, I had some prejudices against all scanners. They were bulky, laggy in capturing the images, etc. When I finally had the chance to use an intraoral scanner and get introductory training with Laura from CAD-RAY a few weeks ago, I totally changed my view of this product. Very soon, I was able to scan crown, bridge, and even denture cases. Of course, I have had some knowledge about the digital scanner from CEs provided in the past, but being able to apply it in the daily practice in such a short time was beyond my expectations. I would highly recommend MEDIT i700 and training from CAD-RAY.
Big thanks to Laura!
-Lei Fu, D.D.S.read less - 9/12/2021
Cadray is excellent and their medit scanner is amazing! - 6/16/2020
Mark Geddes
Love my medit! Cad-ray has been awesome to work with and very educational in learning all things digital . Was doing a study club with 4 other dr's showing off the medit and the cerec dr who had just bought the newest kept saying, "mine doesn't do...read moreLove my medit! Cad-ray has been awesome to work with and very educational in learning all things digital . Was doing a study club with 4 other dr's showing off the medit and the cerec dr who had just bought the newest kept saying, "mine doesn't do that. No way! I wish mine could do that. For real? I paid 4 times as much."
Needless to say the medit is awesome.read less - 6/18/2020
Thank you Frank DeLuca for being so accessible and making everything right again! Customer service is above and beyond. We also love our Medit Scanner - we would be lost without it! - 1/25/2023