I was on the fence on getting a scanner for years and finally pulled the trigger. CAD-Ray's support and knowledge has made this one of the best investments in my practice to date. When I spoke with Damien on the phone about my options he literally sa...read moreI was on the fence on getting a scanner for years and finally pulled the trigger. CAD-Ray's support and knowledge has made this one of the best investments in my practice to date. When I spoke with Damien on the phone about my options he literally saved me thousands after figuring out what my exact needs were. I went with the Medit i600, MSI laptop and 3D dental systems cart. The final product looks and feels as premium as it gets.read less - 2/21/2024
A C
Kaila and Laura were amazing to work with. I would not hesitate to buy again from them. Super helpful/available and one of the best experiences I’ve had making such a big investment in equipment like I had to make for my practice. Way to go Cad Ray f...read moreKaila and Laura were amazing to work with. I would not hesitate to buy again from them. Super helpful/available and one of the best experiences I’ve had making such a big investment in equipment like I had to make for my practice. Way to go Cad Ray for running a solid business!read less - 11/15/2024
Mark Evans
I’d like to tell you a story about CAD-Ray.com.I ordered a VHF N4+ from CadRay. About two weeks after the order was placed, they called me up and said, “VHF just got an exclusive with “The Big Boys” so they are cutting ties with all the little indepe...read moreI’d like to tell you a story about CAD-Ray.com.I ordered a VHF N4+ from CadRay. About two weeks after the order was placed, they called me up and said, “VHF just got an exclusive with “The Big Boys” so they are cutting ties with all the little independent distributors. They just called us, and we just found out. What this means is that we won’t be able to provide you service after purchasing the VHF mill that you just bought.”Now, they could have just left it at that. They could have said, “Sorry, it’s out of our hands.” They could have said, “We appreciate your business, but it’s not our fault.” They could have said, “That’s the way the cookie crumbles.”But they didn’t.Frank Weinstein calls me up and tells me that they want to make this right, so they are going to hook me up with a brand new Imes Coritec One+ for the same price as the VHF. The Coritec One+ is like the Mercedes of mills for in-office. This is the new model that just barely came out. It is a 5 axis mill. It does wet and dry milling. It does blocks and pucks. It mills all materials know to man, including Vibranium. It can also fly the space shuttle, and make all your wishes and dreams come true. It’s that good. It came with the laptop, Exocad, all the tools, and all the bells and whistles. It came fully loaded. It came white glove delivered to my office. It came with in office training. It came with the extra bur package. It came with everything and the kitchen sink.So, I paid 36k for a mill, and because of something that was not Cad-Rays fault, they ended up giving me a 60k mill for the same price.In the words of the great Tony Stark: “That’s how Dad did it. That’s how Cad-Ray does it. And it’s worked out pretty well so far.”Thank you Frank Weinstein and Armen Mirzayan for having outstanding customer service and going the extra mile every time.read less - 4/09/2021
Yoav Taub
I purchased my Medit from Cad-Ray just prior to Covid and they have been fantastic in getting me the proper training on the machine, both through there 2 day class as well as the many video's they post on the website. I recently purchased some acce...read moreI purchased my Medit from Cad-Ray just prior to Covid and they have been fantastic in getting me the proper training on the machine, both through there 2 day class as well as the many video's they post on the website. I recently purchased some accessories for a different office and they accidently sent it somewhere else. After a quick email they had my stuff at my door within 24 hrs and they threw in a box of tips which I was not expecting (around $300). It is a pleasure to deal with them!read less - 7/19/2021
Ellen Huang
Armen created series of these very helpful videos. They helped us tremendously in breaking into the new scanner we purchased. No matter you just got into digital dentistry or you are quite experienced with different fields of data acquiring or treatm...read moreArmen created series of these very helpful videos. They helped us tremendously in breaking into the new scanner we purchased. No matter you just got into digital dentistry or you are quite experienced with different fields of data acquiring or treatment planning, you will find those being tremendous help.read less - 5/24/2020
Had a good experience when purchasing my scanner, it was very easy, and to date after three months of using the scanner no support is a plus, anytime I call me I will answer and troubleshoot - 7/10/2022
Yen Tran
Jonathan and Nick have been a great tremendous help. They went out of their ways to help me upgrade my Medit i500 even though I didn’t purchase my Medit i500 scanner from them. They are the largest Medit scanner distributor and they have the custome...read moreJonathan and Nick have been a great tremendous help. They went out of their ways to help me upgrade my Medit i500 even though I didn’t purchase my Medit i500 scanner from them. They are the largest Medit scanner distributor and they have the customers’ interest at heart. They are super responsive to phone calls, emails, and Facebook messages. I highly recommend their servicesread less - 9/01/2021
Micah Bickel
Great products, training and support - 11/01/2021
Suresh Goel
CAD-Ray is a great resource for all things digital. Knowledgeable team but also able to anticipate your needs and because they’ve done it so many times they seem to know what you need before you do! Definitely the first place to look for digital ha...read moreCAD-Ray is a great resource for all things digital. Knowledgeable team but also able to anticipate your needs and because they’ve done it so many times they seem to know what you need before you do! Definitely the first place to look for digital hardware and integration!read less - 6/16/2020
David Chong
Digital dentistry has changed my work flow for the better and could not imagine going back. So important that I have the support when things don't work as expected. CAD-Ray has been there every step and trust their expertise and knowledge! - 4/20/2022
dr sheth
It was very powerful and enlightening experience today to do 2 day sessions with Dr. Armen and Damien. I learned a lot, quite amazed by how much we can do with knowledge and Medit scanner. As usual great support by CAD-RAY always. I absolutely love M...read moreIt was very powerful and enlightening experience today to do 2 day sessions with Dr. Armen and Damien. I learned a lot, quite amazed by how much we can do with knowledge and Medit scanner. As usual great support by CAD-RAY always. I absolutely love Medit scanner.read less - 8/08/2021
Samir Rana
Ive had the medit since 2018. One of the best decisions in dentistry ive made. I met some of the great trend setters in digital dentistry(armen, jonathan ab and others through social media platforms). Medit Has changed The way i practice, live and ...read moreIve had the medit since 2018. One of the best decisions in dentistry ive made. I met some of the great trend setters in digital dentistry(armen, jonathan ab and others through social media platforms). Medit Has changed The way i practice, live and think! Happy not to have a monthly fee as i did for years. Support is always a message or call away. Would be glad
To further share my experience with you if u need.read less - 6/16/2020
Greg Stepka
Highly Recommend working with Cad-Ray. Just purchased a MeditI700. So easy to work with. Training with Destaney was awesome. - 3/19/2024
David Jump
I can't even find the words to express how incredible CAD-Ray has been with their customer service. I've never worked with a company in ANY industry that has been as helpful and responsive at they have been. Based on their customer service alone I ...read moreI can't even find the words to express how incredible CAD-Ray has been with their customer service. I've never worked with a company in ANY industry that has been as helpful and responsive at they have been. Based on their customer service alone I would buy every piece of equipment I ever needed from them if they sold it. Truly a unique experience! Oh, and the medit i500 has been fantastic, super accurate and patients are blown away by digital impressions. Love it, great product and incredible customer serviceread less - 12/09/2021
John Pisacane
I purchased my Medit scanner after the ADA meeting in 2018. I did it primarily on the personal recommendation of Armen Mirzayan, the owner of Cad-Ray. I have known Armen for over 15 years (we both were CEREC trainers) and he has always been unbeli...read moreI purchased my Medit scanner after the ADA meeting in 2018. I did it primarily on the personal recommendation of Armen Mirzayan, the owner of Cad-Ray. I have known Armen for over 15 years (we both were CEREC trainers) and he has always been unbelievably knowledgeable about dental technology and was always moving on the cutting edge.
When you see Armen's daily FB posts, it’s obvious that he is constantly pushing the envelope and exploring the limits of the Medit and the processes we use to idealize our push towards completely digital dentistry. Medit owners are fortunate to have Armen finding glitches and pushing for improvements in our scanner.
As far as after sale service, I can’t find a flaw with Cad-Ray. You won’t find a more supportive and dentist-centered company. Armen and Frank do everything to make purchasers happy and back up their sales.
I’ve heard of horror stories when people shopped elsewhere and only positive comments about Cad-Ray.
In summary, buy your Medit and other high tech equipment from Cad-Ray, you will be totally satisfied.
.read less - 10/08/2019
I seriously can't believe the amount of support I get from Cad-Ray. I bought a medit scanner 2 months ago through Laura and she was very quick to get it shipped to me. She helped me through the whole process and ensured that I was passed to the right...read moreI seriously can't believe the amount of support I get from Cad-Ray. I bought a medit scanner 2 months ago through Laura and she was very quick to get it shipped to me. She helped me through the whole process and ensured that I was passed to the right people to train me. They were always available whenever I called, even one time I ran into an emergency after hours and Kaila picked up and saved the night. Very cool how they can remote access to my computer and guide me through as if they were right next to me.I also recently bought an Ackuretta Sol printer with Laura's help and she got me paired up with Jessica for my printer training. Jessica is so awesome! She is very knowledgeable and guided me through a lot of troubleshooting and set me up for success.Thank you guys so much!! I will always refer my friends to you all.read less - 4/13/2022
Jacob Masters
Best dental equipment company I have ever worked with! Great response and super helpful for any issues even years later. - 8/03/2023
Jorge Gonzalez
Armen is a dentist and knows what a dentist need, on other words cad ray sells technology that works for dentists! - 6/16/2020
Jim Ellis
I've only worked with this company for a short time but I have found them to be wonderful in every way. Call, emails, and texts are returned very quickly and the equipment that we have purchased works wonderfully. I would highly recommend. Dr Jim Ell...read moreI've only worked with this company for a short time but I have found them to be wonderful in every way. Call, emails, and texts are returned very quickly and the equipment that we have purchased works wonderfully. I would highly recommend. Dr Jim Ellisread less - 5/12/2020
Marc Prince
We’ve been using the Medit i700 in our office for approximately a year now. It has been a game changer and hard to remember what it’s like without using the intra-oral scanner. The Cad-Ray support team has been remarkable as well! - 9/11/2022
David Christensen
I purchased the Medit i500 from Cad-Ray December 2018. I couldn’t be happier with the scanner. The improvements Medit has made over the last 10 months are nothing short of astounding! I can’t imaging what they’ll come up with next.
As for Cad-Ray...read moreI purchased the Medit i500 from Cad-Ray December 2018. I couldn’t be happier with the scanner. The improvements Medit has made over the last 10 months are nothing short of astounding! I can’t imaging what they’ll come up with next.
As for Cad-Ray, their support has been second to none. Never have I experienced the kind of attention and help from any other company. Wether it’s with help installing, computer hardware issues or technical help they respond IMMEDIATELY!
Armen is also a huge reason why I chose Cad-Ray. No one selling a product has helped me more evolve my scanning technique. He’s quick to respond to questions and issues I feel his service is a huge reason why to buy from CAD-RAY.read less - 10/09/2019
I bought a Medit i500 from Cad-Ray. The service was fantastic. This group also does ongoing training to keep you up to date on how to use the technology.I had a minor issue with hardware and Cad-Ray resolved the issues no questions asked!They have a ...read moreI bought a Medit i500 from Cad-Ray. The service was fantastic. This group also does ongoing training to keep you up to date on how to use the technology.I had a minor issue with hardware and Cad-Ray resolved the issues no questions asked!They have a very active online forum that is supportive. I wouldn’t hesitate to purchase more equipment from them!read less - 10/13/2020
Yordanka Ivanova
I had been on the market for a scanner for a while and the i700 is my first intraoral scanner purchase. We are still new to the scanning world and its capabilities. Frank DeLuca was my main contact from the beginning and the person who did our traini...read moreI had been on the market for a scanner for a while and the i700 is my first intraoral scanner purchase. We are still new to the scanning world and its capabilities. Frank DeLuca was my main contact from the beginning and the person who did our training. The scanner is incredible and has surpassed our expectations even though we haven’t used it to its full potential yet. Frank has been amazing and always there to guide us every step of the way. Having such fabulous customer service and support from CAD-Ray was key for us when making this purchase decision. Thank you!read less - 6/23/2022
W Timothy Brooks
Excellent fast color scanner. A great improvement over my old proprietary scanner. Easy to learn software and great free technical support. - 6/18/2020
Choosing an digital intraoral scanner these days can be quite a daunting task. When I reached out to CAD-Ray, as was recommended by many colleagues, I was connected to Frank DeLuca, and he made my decision-making process very simple. Upon receiving...read moreChoosing an digital intraoral scanner these days can be quite a daunting task. When I reached out to CAD-Ray, as was recommended by many colleagues, I was connected to Frank DeLuca, and he made my decision-making process very simple. Upon receiving my 3shape Trios 4 scanner, Frank and the entire tech support team/customer service were very helpful every step of the way. Frank makes himself available when he can in order to address all of the questions I have regarding the digital workflow. I highly recommend CAD-Ray. It will make your transition to digital scanning a positive experience.read less - 1/24/2023
Francis Shin
Amazing customer service. Wayne Glassoff helped me with purchase decision, taking the time to find out my needs, and then my order was delivered quickly! Easily the best "dental" purchase experience that I have ever had. - 9/07/2022
Ajitha Gereddy
We purchased Medit i-500 with CAD ray last December and customer support is great.One of best thing for our practice is having intra oral scanner ,works great . Laura was very patient with our learning curve. - 12/10/2021
Ramin Goshtasbi
Great service even if you own a Primescan. Company is built on customer service. Thanks for the help guys…. - 1/05/2022
Alvin Aquino
I'm a dentist in NJ, and I purchased the Medit i700 from CAD-Ray. Hands down they have the best support team. Laura is awesome with helping us using the Medit and with providing any support we may need. One of my best decisions so far was working wit...read moreI'm a dentist in NJ, and I purchased the Medit i700 from CAD-Ray. Hands down they have the best support team. Laura is awesome with helping us using the Medit and with providing any support we may need. One of my best decisions so far was working with CAD-Ray.read less - 4/15/2022
Erica Zolnierczyk
Purchased the Medit right before the COVID shut down, which gave us time to train on it by watching all the awesome videos CAD-Ray provides. If I couldn’t figure something out, our questions were answered quickly. Now we’re back and using it like cra...read morePurchased the Medit right before the COVID shut down, which gave us time to train on it by watching all the awesome videos CAD-Ray provides. If I couldn’t figure something out, our questions were answered quickly. Now we’re back and using it like crazy. It’s quick, my assistant picked it up quickly and my cases have been coming back perfect. Super happy with the Medit!read less - 6/16/2020
Mark Sperling
Got a great deal in the medit i700 and the training was top notch. I had about 3 one hour sessions with Ryan at cadray and he was clear, concise and knowledgeable in both the software and hardware components of the computer/scanner and the detailed a...read moreGot a great deal in the medit i700 and the training was top notch. I had about 3 one hour sessions with Ryan at cadray and he was clear, concise and knowledgeable in both the software and hardware components of the computer/scanner and the detailed aspects of the dentistry itself. Got a direct line going forward and would recommend cad ray to anyoneread less - 8/17/2022
Chad Gardner, DDS
Can not find a single negative thing to say about my transactions with CAD-Ray. Great people, absolutely unbelievable customer service, and the best products.They stand behind the products they sell as strongly as the manufacturers do. - 4/27/2022
Kenneth Gould
A most helpful, detailed, easy to follow, personal primer via Zoom on integrating the i700 scanner into our practice. Well done! Thank you Kaila! - 5/03/2022
Zachary Breen
I purchased the Medit i700 from CAD-Ray back in May and the purchasing process, setting-up and trouble shooting has been extremely easy and straight forward with CAD-Ray. The Medit i700 is one of the best, if not the best, scanner I have used in the ...read moreI purchased the Medit i700 from CAD-Ray back in May and the purchasing process, setting-up and trouble shooting has been extremely easy and straight forward with CAD-Ray. The Medit i700 is one of the best, if not the best, scanner I have used in the past 5 years of using intraoral scanners. Recently I ran into a software issues with my scanner and I am extremely impressed with CAD-Ray and Medit's timely manner in addressing my issue. Within minutes I was on the phone with them and they had my concerns addressed and solved. I previously recommended a few colleagues to CAD-Ray and I will continue to recommend with even greater enthusiasm. I am very pleased with their customer service and the Medit i700. Thank you CAD-Ray!read less - 9/30/2021
Purchased Medit i700 from Frank/CAD-Ray and everything has been absolutely top-notch! Great service, quick responses, great training. Very happy with CAD-Ray and our i700! - 10/20/2022
Dixie Jernigan
The customer service we have received while working with Frank DeLuca is second to none! He is incredibly knowledgeable and enthusiastic, as well as always available to help with any issues. We are very pleased with CAD-RAY and relationship that they...read moreThe customer service we have received while working with Frank DeLuca is second to none! He is incredibly knowledgeable and enthusiastic, as well as always available to help with any issues. We are very pleased with CAD-RAY and relationship that they have with their clients.read less - 1/25/2023
Aaron Gelfand
Worked with Laura and she is incredibly knowledgeable. She gave me all the right advice and steered me in the right direction. Her ongoing support is as good as it gets. I feel like I have a 24 hour team at my beckoning call. For the meat and pot...read moreWorked with Laura and she is incredibly knowledgeable. She gave me all the right advice and steered me in the right direction. Her ongoing support is as good as it gets. I feel like I have a 24 hour team at my beckoning call. For the meat and potatoes. I got an Icam 4D from her and now I am printing all on 4 arches same day surgery at our practice in Denver(NUSET). We are going to put ICams and Trios’ in all our offices thanks to Laura and the Cad-Ray team. If you have any questions about the workflow and the success we are having with the Digital work flow call Laura and I will help you succeed with her product support.Thank you Laura and Cad-Ray!read less - 4/28/2022
Ravi Sawhney
Fantastic folks. I'm an orthodontist and opened an office in 2020. They helped me find the perfect intraoral scanner to suit my needs. Not too much or too little, and a great price. Every time we have a technical question, a sharp human answers the p...read moreFantastic folks. I'm an orthodontist and opened an office in 2020. They helped me find the perfect intraoral scanner to suit my needs. Not too much or too little, and a great price. Every time we have a technical question, a sharp human answers the phone, troubleshoots, and remotes in when needed-- navigating MS updates and graphics card issues. My i500 died this week. They overnighted me a trade-in at a totally reasonable price, and even shipped me a laptop to drive the i600 while I got a new one (they knew my 2020 laptop wouldn't keep up!). CAD-Ray has consistently hit it out of the park.read less - 4/14/2025
Mark Geddes
Love my medit! Cad-ray has been awesome to work with and very educational in learning all things digital . Was doing a study club with 4 other dr's showing off the medit and the cerec dr who had just bought the newest kept saying, "mine doesn't do...read moreLove my medit! Cad-ray has been awesome to work with and very educational in learning all things digital . Was doing a study club with 4 other dr's showing off the medit and the cerec dr who had just bought the newest kept saying, "mine doesn't do that. No way! I wish mine could do that. For real? I paid 4 times as much."
Needless to say the medit is awesome.read less - 6/18/2020
I have had my Medit i700 scanner for about 2 months now and have completed 67 restorative cases with it. Scans have generally been pretty quick, and the accuracy seems to be superior to the iTero I used. My first scanner ended up dying after a few ...read moreI have had my Medit i700 scanner for about 2 months now and have completed 67 restorative cases with it. Scans have generally been pretty quick, and the accuracy seems to be superior to the iTero I used. My first scanner ended up dying after a few weeks. Medit and cad-ray were great- they sent a new scanner within the week and haven't had any problems since. Customer service has been spot on. Overall I have been very satisfied.read less - 6/30/2021
Thanks for delivering amazing courses. Always thinking beyond dentistry. Thanks for sharing all so selflessly. - 11/13/2022
Ashley Guarisco
Cad-Ray's customer service has been amazing since day one! From getting a quote to setting everything up and doing my first scan. Everyone has been super helpful! Heather Gramley has been awesome, it's like having a tech in my back pocket! They offer...read moreCad-Ray's customer service has been amazing since day one! From getting a quote to setting everything up and doing my first scan. Everyone has been super helpful! Heather Gramley has been awesome, it's like having a tech in my back pocket! They offer tons of training videos and offer one on one training. I would 10/10 recommend them for all of your scanning needs!read less - 11/21/2022
Dennis Wong
Best support ever. They are super responsive when a problem occurred, and immediately set up a support ticket with the vendor who contacted me within the hour to help me to solve the problem. - 7/27/2023
Thanh Huynh
I am beyond impressed with Destaney and Cad-Ray! Despite accidentally throwing away my old scanner, which I was supposed to return, their team went above and beyond to advocate for me. Their exceptional support and understanding turned a stressful si...read moreI am beyond impressed with Destaney and Cad-Ray! Despite accidentally throwing away my old scanner, which I was supposed to return, their team went above and beyond to advocate for me. Their exceptional support and understanding turned a stressful situation into a seamless experience. Highly recommend!read less - 8/02/2024
Krupal Chhotu
Finally going digital and Cad-Ray was the place to start. Got the Medit i500 and began scanning right away. Now I am doing digital dentures, making my own surgical stents, etc. The support available is the best. "Frank" is always available! :) - 10/09/2019
I purchased my medit in April of 2019 from Cad-Ray. The support offered is second to none, and the training videos are some of the best out there. Add to that a great support team that is fast to answer questions and issues, its hard to beat Cad-Ray. - 6/19/2020
Peipei Yu
I purchased a Medit scanner in August and I am very happy with the scanner. I was trained on an Omnicam in dental school and used Omnicam for 4 years in my associateship. The speed and quality of the Medit scanner is comparable to a CEREC scanner but...read moreI purchased a Medit scanner in August and I am very happy with the scanner. I was trained on an Omnicam in dental school and used Omnicam for 4 years in my associateship. The speed and quality of the Medit scanner is comparable to a CEREC scanner but you can’t beat the price of the Medit! I would highly recommend this if you are a beginner or pro in digital dentistry!read less - 9/21/2020
Miller Loriaux
Absolutely love dealing with this company. Purchased two intraoral scanners from them over the last 3 years and the support has been beyond exceptional. Frank patiently walked me through all the basics with many a phone call (to his personal cell p...read moreAbsolutely love dealing with this company. Purchased two intraoral scanners from them over the last 3 years and the support has been beyond exceptional. Frank patiently walked me through all the basics with many a phone call (to his personal cell phone, no less) on the first go round. Whenever we've even had a hint of technical difficulty there is ALWAYS a knowledgeable voice on the other end of the line. After 3 years of use a significant issue came up with the scanner and they went above and beyond to get it back up and running. Was so impressed (and I realized how dependent we've become on a scanner) that I purchased another one.Needed some assistance submitting a Valplast RPD design digitally this week. Damien worked me through it in literally 5 minutes and took the time to optimize my graphics card performance while he was there. Top shelf service.Certainly, the first place I go with any dental tech purchase.read less - 6/04/2022
Steve Blank
I bought the Medit i500 and self installed to save $$$. The web site provided great step by step instructions. The Facebook group filled in the gaps. The software has been continuously upgraded and works great for scanning and tracking cases sent and...read moreI bought the Medit i500 and self installed to save $$$. The web site provided great step by step instructions. The Facebook group filled in the gaps. The software has been continuously upgraded and works great for scanning and tracking cases sent and received. My tip for scanning single crowns: While waiting for anesthesia, Scan the upper and lower quadrants and record the bite. Then i delete the tooth to be scanned. That saves time later after tooth preparation. At that time, switch to HD and scan the prep, done!read less - 6/16/2020
Luciana Bretz-Pavie
Wayne Glassoff is the go-to guy here! The BEST!!! He is always on it, he helps figuring out exactly what you need, the best way possible. And fast! Great working with CAD-Ray, they have pretty much everything when it comes to digital dentistry. And t...read moreWayne Glassoff is the go-to guy here! The BEST!!! He is always on it, he helps figuring out exactly what you need, the best way possible. And fast! Great working with CAD-Ray, they have pretty much everything when it comes to digital dentistry. And they give you a damn good support too. Jessica Knott is awesome… training and support, just the BEST! Very satisfied customer here!read less - 2/05/2023
Home » Meditlink Software Version 2.1 (September 5 2019)
To date, the literature and research clearly points out that full arch scans with edentulous arches are prone to inaccuracies. That’s because we have never had a way to measure...
This is a preview of a single unit case that was scanned using the Artificial Implant Suprastructure Identification System of the Medit Software. To see the full case follow this...
Hydroflouric Acid Etched Treated Scanbody Surface makes Intra-Oral Scanning much easier for all dental scanners. Apply a coat of HF for a mere 10 seconds and rinse off...
In this clinical case a patient lost a pre-existing crown. The remaining tooth structure had recurrent decay and a new crown was warranted. After anesthesia was administered, the clearance from...
Photogammetry has set the highest standard for full arch accuracy in digital dentistry for edentulous patients with multiple implant fixtures. An easy scan in under 15 seconds captures enough detail...
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